Re: Tip of the day: Cheatsheet for common cmdline client operations

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Re: Tip of the day: Cheatsheet for common cmdline client operations

Daniel Shahaf-2
[moving from users@ ]

Daniel Shahaf wrote on Fri, 30 Jun 2017 09:15 +0000:
> I just ran into the following cheatsheet:
>
> http://www.chim.unifi.it/~signo/did/etc/subversion/neat.html
>
> It covers the normal multi-user workflow, branching, etc..
>
> (Kudos to the author, Giorgio Signorini, not to me.)

As some of you know, the author gave us permission to incorporate that
cheatsheet into the official documentation.  Any volunteers to start the
process?

Cheers,

Daniel
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Re: Tip of the day: Cheatsheet for common cmdline client operations

C. Michael Pilato-2
With respect to the author and the work he's done, I'm not really interested in us maintaining yet another collection of the same information already covered -- in some cases multiple times, when you factor in the reference sections -- by the book.  At best this cheatsheet would be an appendix.  I'm happy to link to the cheatsheet from from the book website, though.

-- Mike

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 11:21 AM, Daniel Shahaf <[hidden email]> wrote:
[moving from users@ ]

Daniel Shahaf wrote on Fri, 30 Jun 2017 09:15 +0000:
> I just ran into the following cheatsheet:
>
> http://www.chim.unifi.it/~signo/did/etc/subversion/neat.html
>
> It covers the normal multi-user workflow, branching, etc..
>
> (Kudos to the author, Giorgio Signorini, not to me.)

As some of you know, the author gave us permission to incorporate that
cheatsheet into the official documentation.  Any volunteers to start the
process?

Cheers,

Daniel

_______________________________________________
svnbook-dev mailing list
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http://www.red-bean.com/mailman/listinfo/svnbook-dev

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Re: Tip of the day: Cheatsheet for common cmdline client operations

Johan Corveleyn-3
[ cc -= svnbook-dev, as I guess this will not become book-material.
More below ... ]

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 6:34 PM, C. Michael Pilato
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 11:21 AM, Daniel Shahaf <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> [moving from users@ ]
>>
>> Daniel Shahaf wrote on Fri, 30 Jun 2017 09:15 +0000:
>> > I just ran into the following cheatsheet:
>> >
>> > http://www.chim.unifi.it/~signo/did/etc/subversion/neat.html
>> >
>> > It covers the normal multi-user workflow, branching, etc..
>> >
>> > (Kudos to the author, Giorgio Signorini, not to me.)
>>
>> As some of you know, the author gave us permission to incorporate that
>> cheatsheet into the official documentation.  Any volunteers to start the
>> process?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Daniel
>>
> With respect to the author and the work he's done, I'm not really interested
> in us maintaining yet another collection of the same information already
> covered -- in some cases multiple times, when you factor in the reference
> sections -- by the book.  At best this cheatsheet would be an appendix.  I'm
> happy to link to the cheatsheet from from the book website, though.
>
> -- Mike

FWIW, I think this cheatsheet is quite good and valuable (though I
agree there is a lot of overlap with existing documentation),
especially for newcomers. Just to have a good summary / reminder of
common things you'll encounter.

We have our own quickstart page: http://subversion.apache.org/quick-start

How about:

- Putting a link at the bottom of that page (there is already a link
to the quickstart section of the book), linking to the original
webpage of the author.

or

- Incorporating (some of) the content of that cheatsheet directly on
http://subversion.apache.org/quick-start, so it's right there in front
of you ...


The latter option would be my personal preference (putting my user /
admin hat on) -- I like having short info right in front of me in the
right place -- but obviously imposes some amount of doc-maintenance
work on "us".

Maybe someone on this list would be willing to take this doc-task
(migrating the current content, and keep an eye on keeping it up to
date)?

--
Johan
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Re: Tip of the day: Cheatsheet for common cmdline client operations

C. Michael Pilato-2
I like either idea, though of course I lean towards not duplicating information that's already maintained elsewhere unless, of course, there's reason to believe that it won't be maintained elsewhere.

Just for kicks, I did some Googling around:

  • "Subversion cheat sheet":  returns a number of third-party (largely PDF) resources
  • "Subversion quick start":  the project's quick-start page wins the day, with the Book's "High-Speed Tutorial" second
  • "getting started with Subversion":  the project's quick-start page again is the top hit, with the book nearly not even making the top-10 hits
So, yeah, I think linking from http://subversion.apache.org/quick-start is a wise move.

-- Mike

On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 7:03 AM, Johan Corveleyn <[hidden email]> wrote:
[ cc -= svnbook-dev, as I guess this will not become book-material.
More below ... ]

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 6:34 PM, C. Michael Pilato
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 11:21 AM, Daniel Shahaf <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> [moving from users@ ]
>>
>> Daniel Shahaf wrote on Fri, 30 Jun 2017 09:15 +0000:
>> > I just ran into the following cheatsheet:
>> >
>> > http://www.chim.unifi.it/~signo/did/etc/subversion/neat.html
>> >
>> > It covers the normal multi-user workflow, branching, etc..
>> >
>> > (Kudos to the author, Giorgio Signorini, not to me.)
>>
>> As some of you know, the author gave us permission to incorporate that
>> cheatsheet into the official documentation.  Any volunteers to start the
>> process?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Daniel
>>
> With respect to the author and the work he's done, I'm not really interested
> in us maintaining yet another collection of the same information already
> covered -- in some cases multiple times, when you factor in the reference
> sections -- by the book.  At best this cheatsheet would be an appendix.  I'm
> happy to link to the cheatsheet from from the book website, though.
>
> -- Mike

FWIW, I think this cheatsheet is quite good and valuable (though I
agree there is a lot of overlap with existing documentation),
especially for newcomers. Just to have a good summary / reminder of
common things you'll encounter.

We have our own quickstart page: http://subversion.apache.org/quick-start

How about:

- Putting a link at the bottom of that page (there is already a link
to the quickstart section of the book), linking to the original
webpage of the author.

or

- Incorporating (some of) the content of that cheatsheet directly on
http://subversion.apache.org/quick-start, so it's right there in front
of you ...


The latter option would be my personal preference (putting my user /
admin hat on) -- I like having short info right in front of me in the
right place -- but obviously imposes some amount of doc-maintenance
work on "us".

Maybe someone on this list would be willing to take this doc-task
(migrating the current content, and keep an eye on keeping it up to
date)?

--
Johan

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Re: Tip of the day: Cheatsheet for common cmdline client operations

bahrep
In reply to this post by Johan Corveleyn-3
Hello,

On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 2:03 PM, Johan Corveleyn <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> [ cc -= svnbook-dev, as I guess this will not become book-material.
> More below ... ]
>
> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 6:34 PM, C. Michael Pilato
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 11:21 AM, Daniel Shahaf <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> [moving from users@ ]
> >>
> >> Daniel Shahaf wrote on Fri, 30 Jun 2017 09:15 +0000:
> >> > I just ran into the following cheatsheet:
> >> >
> >> > http://www.chim.unifi.it/~signo/did/etc/subversion/neat.html
> >> >
> >> > It covers the normal multi-user workflow, branching, etc..
> >> >
> >> > (Kudos to the author, Giorgio Signorini, not to me.)
> >>
> >> As some of you know, the author gave us permission to incorporate that
> >> cheatsheet into the official documentation.  Any volunteers to start the
> >> process?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Daniel
> >>
> > With respect to the author and the work he's done, I'm not really interested
> > in us maintaining yet another collection of the same information already
> > covered -- in some cases multiple times, when you factor in the reference
> > sections -- by the book.  At best this cheatsheet would be an appendix.  I'm
> > happy to link to the cheatsheet from from the book website, though.
> >
> > -- Mike
>
> FWIW, I think this cheatsheet is quite good and valuable (though I
> agree there is a lot of overlap with existing documentation),
> especially for newcomers. Just to have a good summary / reminder of
> common things you'll encounter.
>
> We have our own quickstart page: http://subversion.apache.org/quick-start
>
> How about:
>
> - Putting a link at the bottom of that page (there is already a link
> to the quickstart section of the book), linking to the original
> webpage of the author.
>
> or
>
> - Incorporating (some of) the content of that cheatsheet directly on
> http://subversion.apache.org/quick-start, so it's right there in front
> of you ...
>
>
> The latter option would be my personal preference (putting my user /
> admin hat on) -- I like having short info right in front of me in the
> right place -- but obviously imposes some amount of doc-maintenance
> work on "us".
>
> Maybe someone on this list would be willing to take this doc-task
> (migrating the current content, and keep an eye on keeping it up to
> date)?
>
> --
> Johan

IMO, this doc-task has to be reworded into composing a walkthrough for SVN end
user who wants to start performing basic version control tasks over remote
repository, but did not read SVNBook or other SVN-related documentation. What do
you think?

I feel that the cheatsheet[1] needs to be reworked or at least restructured. In
the current state I feel that it is just personal notes that describe various
common SVN tasks, actions and tricks. Cheatsheet or personal notes is not
a "quick start" guide.

Anyway, I like the idea of adding some of the content from the cheatsheet to
the quick start page[2] and I would be glad to take this task.

The question is: what kind of topics should the quick start page cover?

My idea is that the page should provide task-based guidance for SVN end user on
how to
* checkout a working copy,
* update the working copy,
* modify the data in the working copy and commit it,
* make a branch or tag,
* perform a simple merge.

BTW, don't miss SVN-related docs on StackOverflow Documentation[3]. I'm pretty
sure that some of the topics from that doc will be useful.

[1]: http://www.chim.unifi.it/~signo/did/etc/subversion/neat.html
[2]: http://subversion.apache.org/quick-start
[3]: https://stackoverflow.com/documentation/svn/topics

--
With best regards,
Pavel Lyalyakin
VisualSVN Team
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Re: Tip of the day: Cheatsheet for common cmdline client operations

Johan Corveleyn-3
On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Pavel Lyalyakin
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 2:03 PM, Johan Corveleyn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> [ cc -= svnbook-dev, as I guess this will not become book-material.
>> More below ... ]
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 6:34 PM, C. Michael Pilato
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 11:21 AM, Daniel Shahaf <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> [moving from users@ ]
>> >>
>> >> Daniel Shahaf wrote on Fri, 30 Jun 2017 09:15 +0000:
>> >> > I just ran into the following cheatsheet:
>> >> >
>> >> > http://www.chim.unifi.it/~signo/did/etc/subversion/neat.html
>> >> >
>> >> > It covers the normal multi-user workflow, branching, etc..
>> >> >
>> >> > (Kudos to the author, Giorgio Signorini, not to me.)
>> >>
>> >> As some of you know, the author gave us permission to incorporate that
>> >> cheatsheet into the official documentation.  Any volunteers to start the
>> >> process?
>> >>
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> Daniel
>> >>
>> > With respect to the author and the work he's done, I'm not really interested
>> > in us maintaining yet another collection of the same information already
>> > covered -- in some cases multiple times, when you factor in the reference
>> > sections -- by the book.  At best this cheatsheet would be an appendix.  I'm
>> > happy to link to the cheatsheet from from the book website, though.
>> >
>> > -- Mike
>>
>> FWIW, I think this cheatsheet is quite good and valuable (though I
>> agree there is a lot of overlap with existing documentation),
>> especially for newcomers. Just to have a good summary / reminder of
>> common things you'll encounter.
>>
>> We have our own quickstart page: http://subversion.apache.org/quick-start
>>
>> How about:
>>
>> - Putting a link at the bottom of that page (there is already a link
>> to the quickstart section of the book), linking to the original
>> webpage of the author.
>>
>> or
>>
>> - Incorporating (some of) the content of that cheatsheet directly on
>> http://subversion.apache.org/quick-start, so it's right there in front
>> of you ...
>>
>>
>> The latter option would be my personal preference (putting my user /
>> admin hat on) -- I like having short info right in front of me in the
>> right place -- but obviously imposes some amount of doc-maintenance
>> work on "us".
>>
>> Maybe someone on this list would be willing to take this doc-task
>> (migrating the current content, and keep an eye on keeping it up to
>> date)?
>>
>> --
>> Johan
>
> IMO, this doc-task has to be reworded into composing a walkthrough for SVN end
> user who wants to start performing basic version control tasks over remote
> repository, but did not read SVNBook or other SVN-related documentation. What do
> you think?
>
> I feel that the cheatsheet[1] needs to be reworked or at least restructured. In
> the current state I feel that it is just personal notes that describe various
> common SVN tasks, actions and tricks. Cheatsheet or personal notes is not
> a "quick start" guide.

Hm, I guess you're right. Though I think there is also a place for
snippets / reminders / recipes (common SVN tasks, actions and tricks),
I suppose a good walkthrough is even better for bootstrapping new
users.

> Anyway, I like the idea of adding some of the content from the cheatsheet to
> the quick start page[2] and I would be glad to take this task.

That would be great!

> The question is: what kind of topics should the quick start page cover?
>
> My idea is that the page should provide task-based guidance for SVN end user on
> how to
> * checkout a working copy,
> * update the working copy,
> * modify the data in the working copy and commit it,
> * make a branch or tag,
> * perform a simple merge.

Sounds terrific.

The current quickstart page focuses on "how do I quickly set up a my
own little repository, locally (with file:///) and put some stuff in
there". Like a beginning user / student / ... perhaps would like to
version his own files. I think it's a good way to introduce the
concepts of repository and working copy, and help them get started by
versioning some of their own files locally.

Do you think you can start from that "setup", and continue with the
topics you listed above? Or would you like to take a different angle?

> BTW, don't miss SVN-related docs on StackOverflow Documentation[3]. I'm pretty
> sure that some of the topics from that doc will be useful.

Interesting! Maybe we can link to that, or look what of those topics
we can cover as well.

> [1]: http://www.chim.unifi.it/~signo/did/etc/subversion/neat.html
> [2]: http://subversion.apache.org/quick-start
> [3]: https://stackoverflow.com/documentation/svn/topics
>
> --
> With best regards,
> Pavel Lyalyakin
> VisualSVN Team

Thanks for taking a look at this.

Cheers,
--
Johan
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Re: Tip of the day: Cheatsheet for common cmdline client operations

bahrep
Hello,

On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 11:22 PM, Johan Corveleyn <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Pavel Lyalyakin
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 2:03 PM, Johan Corveleyn <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> [ cc -= svnbook-dev, as I guess this will not become book-material.
> >> More below ... ]
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 6:34 PM, C. Michael Pilato
> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 11:21 AM, Daniel Shahaf <[hidden email]>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> [moving from users@ ]
> >> >>
> >> >> Daniel Shahaf wrote on Fri, 30 Jun 2017 09:15 +0000:
> >> >> > I just ran into the following cheatsheet:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > http://www.chim.unifi.it/~signo/did/etc/subversion/neat.html
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It covers the normal multi-user workflow, branching, etc..
> >> >> >
> >> >> > (Kudos to the author, Giorgio Signorini, not to me.)
> >> >>
> >> >> As some of you know, the author gave us permission to incorporate that
> >> >> cheatsheet into the official documentation.  Any volunteers to start the
> >> >> process?
> >> >>
> >> >> Cheers,
> >> >>
> >> >> Daniel
> >> >>
> >> > With respect to the author and the work he's done, I'm not really interested
> >> > in us maintaining yet another collection of the same information already
> >> > covered -- in some cases multiple times, when you factor in the reference
> >> > sections -- by the book.  At best this cheatsheet would be an appendix.  I'm
> >> > happy to link to the cheatsheet from from the book website, though.
> >> >
> >> > -- Mike
> >>
> >> FWIW, I think this cheatsheet is quite good and valuable (though I
> >> agree there is a lot of overlap with existing documentation),
> >> especially for newcomers. Just to have a good summary / reminder of
> >> common things you'll encounter.
> >>
> >> We have our own quickstart page: http://subversion.apache.org/quick-start
> >>
> >> How about:
> >>
> >> - Putting a link at the bottom of that page (there is already a link
> >> to the quickstart section of the book), linking to the original
> >> webpage of the author.
> >>
> >> or
> >>
> >> - Incorporating (some of) the content of that cheatsheet directly on
> >> http://subversion.apache.org/quick-start, so it's right there in front
> >> of you ...
> >>
> >>
> >> The latter option would be my personal preference (putting my user /
> >> admin hat on) -- I like having short info right in front of me in the
> >> right place -- but obviously imposes some amount of doc-maintenance
> >> work on "us".
> >>
> >> Maybe someone on this list would be willing to take this doc-task
> >> (migrating the current content, and keep an eye on keeping it up to
> >> date)?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Johan
> >
> > IMO, this doc-task has to be reworded into composing a walkthrough for SVN end
> > user who wants to start performing basic version control tasks over remote
> > repository, but did not read SVNBook or other SVN-related documentation. What do
> > you think?
> >
> > I feel that the cheatsheet[1] needs to be reworked or at least restructured. In
> > the current state I feel that it is just personal notes that describe various
> > common SVN tasks, actions and tricks. Cheatsheet or personal notes is not
> > a "quick start" guide.
>
> Hm, I guess you're right. Though I think there is also a place for
> snippets / reminders / recipes (common SVN tasks, actions and tricks),
> I suppose a good walkthrough is even better for bootstrapping new
> users.
>
> > Anyway, I like the idea of adding some of the content from the cheatsheet to
> > the quick start page[2] and I would be glad to take this task.
>
> That would be great!
I've spent some time to materialize the Quick Start document that I
think will be helpful for novice SVN users. At the moment, it provides
the most basic guidance which should be enough for "quick start".
However, it lacks "Viewing the history of changes" section that is not
ready yet. As of merging, I'd better provide a link to relevant
SVNBook sections. Merging is not a basic topic and should not be
described in a Quick Start guide, IMO.

I'm attaching two patches. I would greatly appreciate a review,
comments and suggestions. Here we go:
1. svn-quick-start-eol-native-v1.patch.txt
   Log Message:
   [[[
   Add missing svn:eol-style=native property to publish/quick-start.html
   ]]]
2. svn-updated-quick-start-v1.patch.txt
    Log Message:
   [[[
   * publish/quick-start.html:
     Updating the SVN Quick Start guide as suggested in
     https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/ea3462042131baac9c702fd4f19ae292c25ef20527d27db449e90f0e@%3Cdev.subversion.apache.org%3E
   ]]]

> > The question is: what kind of topics should the quick start page cover?
> >
> > My idea is that the page should provide task-based guidance for SVN end user on
> > how to
> > * checkout a working copy,
> > * update the working copy,
> > * modify the data in the working copy and commit it,
> > * make a branch or tag,
> > * perform a simple merge.
>
> Sounds terrific.
>
> The current quickstart page focuses on "how do I quickly set up a my
> own little repository, locally (with file:///) and put some stuff in
> there". Like a beginning user / student / ... perhaps would like to
> version his own files. I think it's a good way to introduce the
> concepts of repository and working copy, and help them get started by
> versioning some of their own files locally.
SVNBook has a High-Speed Tutorial that provides such instructions:
http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.8/svn.intro.quickstart.html

> Do you think you can start from that "setup", and continue with the
> topics you listed above? Or would you like to take a different angle?

I'm thinking about taking a different angle. I think that the document
should assume that a remote Subversion repository is already in place
and the user simply wants to start working with the existing versioned
data. Or he wants to import non-versioned data to the new remote
repository or repository sub-path.

In my experience, a beginning user or a student already has a
repository that he access via HTTP(S) or svnserve protocol. For
example, a first-year student gains access to his private SVN
repository and never has to use file:// schema or `svnadmin` tool.
There is another case, when a user should first request to create a
repository for him or for his project (here is an example:
http://information-technology.web.cern.ch/book/how-start-working-svn/requesting-new-svn-repository).
He won't use file:// schema and `svnadmin` in this case, too.

> > BTW, don't miss SVN-related docs on StackOverflow Documentation[3]. I'm pretty
> > sure that some of the topics from that doc will be useful.
>
> Interesting! Maybe we can link to that, or look what of those topics
> we can cover as well.
>
> > [1]: http://www.chim.unifi.it/~signo/did/etc/subversion/neat.html
> > [2]: http://subversion.apache.org/quick-start
> > [3]: https://stackoverflow.com/documentation/svn/topics
> >
> > --
> > With best regards,
> > Pavel Lyalyakin
> > VisualSVN Team
>
> Thanks for taking a look at this.
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Johan
--
With best regards,
Pavel Lyalyakin
VisualSVN Team

svn-quick-start-eol-native-v1.patch.txt (536 bytes) Download Attachment
svn-updated-quick-start-v1.patch.txt (25K) Download Attachment
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Re: Tip of the day: Cheatsheet for common cmdline client operations

Johan Corveleyn-3
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Pavel Lyalyakin
<[hidden email]> wrote:
...
> I've spent some time to materialize the Quick Start document that I
> think will be helpful for novice SVN users. At the moment, it provides
> the most basic guidance which should be enough for "quick start".
> However, it lacks "Viewing the history of changes" section that is not
> ready yet. As of merging, I'd better provide a link to relevant
> SVNBook sections. Merging is not a basic topic and should not be
> described in a Quick Start guide, IMO.

Hi Pavel,

Nice! I've done a quick scan and it looks good in general. I'll try to
go through it in detail this weekend, if I find some time.

Your "quick start" is much larger than the old one (so we have to be
careful that it's still as short as possible, to be "quick"), but I
think it's good that you added some explanation of the basic concepts,
and try to take the user along the most basic commands. The old "quick
start" was more in the style of "here is some bait, don't be afraid to
give it a try, and look for more docs". But now that I've read your
patch (diagonally), I like it.

> I'm attaching two patches. I would greatly appreciate a review,
> comments and suggestions. Here we go:
> 1. svn-quick-start-eol-native-v1.patch.txt
>    Log Message:
>    [[[
>    Add missing svn:eol-style=native property to publish/quick-start.html
>    ]]]

Sure, of course.

> 2. svn-updated-quick-start-v1.patch.txt
>     Log Message:
>    [[[
>    * publish/quick-start.html:
>      Updating the SVN Quick Start guide as suggested in
>      https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/ea3462042131baac9c702fd4f19ae292c25ef20527d27db449e90f0e@%3Cdev.subversion.apache.org%3E
>    ]]]

Okay, I'll try to go through it in detail.

>> > The question is: what kind of topics should the quick start page cover?
>> >
>> > My idea is that the page should provide task-based guidance for SVN end user on
>> > how to
>> > * checkout a working copy,
>> > * update the working copy,
>> > * modify the data in the working copy and commit it,
>> > * make a branch or tag,
>> > * perform a simple merge.
>>
>> Sounds terrific.
>>
>> The current quickstart page focuses on "how do I quickly set up a my
>> own little repository, locally (with file:///) and put some stuff in
>> there". Like a beginning user / student / ... perhaps would like to
>> version his own files. I think it's a good way to introduce the
>> concepts of repository and working copy, and help them get started by
>> versioning some of their own files locally.
>
> SVNBook has a High-Speed Tutorial that provides such instructions:
> http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.8/svn.intro.quickstart.html

Yes, I know. But still, I think it's important to have quick
instructions on our own webpages. Also, the quickstart in the book
only shows unix-style examples, and our quickstart page shows both
unix and windows examples. I think that's important.

>> Do you think you can start from that "setup", and continue with the
>> topics you listed above? Or would you like to take a different angle?
>
> I'm thinking about taking a different angle. I think that the document
> should assume that a remote Subversion repository is already in place
> and the user simply wants to start working with the existing versioned
> data. Or he wants to import non-versioned data to the new remote
> repository or repository sub-path.
>
> In my experience, a beginning user or a student already has a
> repository that he access via HTTP(S) or svnserve protocol. For
> example, a first-year student gains access to his private SVN
> repository and never has to use file:// schema or `svnadmin` tool.
> There is another case, when a user should first request to create a
> repository for him or for his project (here is an example:
> http://information-technology.web.cern.ch/book/how-start-working-svn/requesting-new-svn-repository).
> He won't use file:// schema and `svnadmin` in this case, too.

Hm, okay, I guess you're right concerning "most beginners already have
a server setup for them". OTOH, those are the users that often have
local people to help them, and documentation / faqs / ... written by
their administrators tuned to the local setup.

So I'm not sure about dropping the "how to make your own local
repository with file:// and track your own personal files" entirely.
It's a good way to get a bit of introduction to the repository side of
the story too (and it's a bit of a neglected use case of svn: track
your own files locally). Maybe we can add an extra section (after the
ones you already added) about this. Somewhat optional, in the sense of
"if you're interested to set up your own local repository to
version-control your own files, here is how to do it". Just thinking
out loud ...

--
Johan
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Re: Tip of the day: Cheatsheet for common cmdline client operations

bahrep
Hello,

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 11:57 PM, Johan Corveleyn <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Pavel Lyalyakin
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...
>> I've spent some time to materialize the Quick Start document that I
>> think will be helpful for novice SVN users. At the moment, it provides
>> the most basic guidance which should be enough for "quick start".
>> However, it lacks "Viewing the history of changes" section that is not
>> ready yet. As of merging, I'd better provide a link to relevant
>> SVNBook sections. Merging is not a basic topic and should not be
>> described in a Quick Start guide, IMO.
>
> Hi Pavel,
>
> Nice! I've done a quick scan and it looks good in general. I'll try to
> go through it in detail this weekend, if I find some time.
>
> Your "quick start" is much larger than the old one (so we have to be
> careful that it's still as short as possible, to be "quick"), but I
> think it's good that you added some explanation of the basic concepts,
> and try to take the user along the most basic commands. The old "quick
> start" was more in the style of "here is some bait, don't be afraid to
> give it a try, and look for more docs". But now that I've read your
> patch (diagonally), I like it.

Thank you. :)

I consider the current patch as a basis for further work on this
document. I am not comfortable with rolling out a patch for
non-discussed document. But if we agree on the structure and topics
that should be covered, it is going to be easier to compose the doc
and review it.

>> I'm attaching two patches. I would greatly appreciate a review,
>> comments and suggestions. Here we go:
>> 1. svn-quick-start-eol-native-v1.patch.txt
>>    Log Message:
>>    [[[
>>    Add missing svn:eol-style=native property to publish/quick-start.html
>>    ]]]
>
> Sure, of course.
>
>> 2. svn-updated-quick-start-v1.patch.txt
>>     Log Message:
>>    [[[
>>    * publish/quick-start.html:
>>      Updating the SVN Quick Start guide as suggested in
>>      https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/ea3462042131baac9c702fd4f19ae292c25ef20527d27db449e90f0e@%3Cdev.subversion.apache.org%3E
>>    ]]]
>
> Okay, I'll try to go through it in detail.
>
>>> > The question is: what kind of topics should the quick start page cover?
>>> >
>>> > My idea is that the page should provide task-based guidance for SVN end user on
>>> > how to
>>> > * checkout a working copy,
>>> > * update the working copy,
>>> > * modify the data in the working copy and commit it,
>>> > * make a branch or tag,
>>> > * perform a simple merge.
>>>
>>> Sounds terrific.
>>>
>>> The current quickstart page focuses on "how do I quickly set up a my
>>> own little repository, locally (with file:///) and put some stuff in
>>> there". Like a beginning user / student / ... perhaps would like to
>>> version his own files. I think it's a good way to introduce the
>>> concepts of repository and working copy, and help them get started by
>>> versioning some of their own files locally.
>>
>> SVNBook has a High-Speed Tutorial that provides such instructions:
>> http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.8/svn.intro.quickstart.html
>
> Yes, I know. But still, I think it's important to have quick
> instructions on our own webpages. Also, the quickstart in the book
> only shows unix-style examples, and our quickstart page shows both
> unix and windows examples. I think that's important.

I think that Windows-style examples could be easily added to the
suggested version of the document. For example, we can add two
versions of these examples. Note that the examples in the current
version of the document should work both on *nix systems and Windows.
There is one example specific to *nix, though:
[[[
Direct access: file://var/svn/repos/MyRepo/MyProject/trunk
]]]

>>> Do you think you can start from that "setup", and continue with the
>>> topics you listed above? Or would you like to take a different angle?
>>
>> I'm thinking about taking a different angle. I think that the document
>> should assume that a remote Subversion repository is already in place
>> and the user simply wants to start working with the existing versioned
>> data. Or he wants to import non-versioned data to the new remote
>> repository or repository sub-path.
>>
>> In my experience, a beginning user or a student already has a
>> repository that he access via HTTP(S) or svnserve protocol. For
>> example, a first-year student gains access to his private SVN
>> repository and never has to use file:// schema or `svnadmin` tool.
>> There is another case, when a user should first request to create a
>> repository for him or for his project (here is an example:
>> http://information-technology.web.cern.ch/book/how-start-working-svn/requesting-new-svn-repository).
>> He won't use file:// schema and `svnadmin` in this case, too.
>
> Hm, okay, I guess you're right concerning "most beginners already have
> a server setup for them". OTOH, those are the users that often have
> local people to help them, and documentation / faqs / ... written by
> their administrators tuned to the local setup.

I think that we should back those local people and administrators with
some kind of quick reference. It should be helpful for them when they
write the documentation tuned to their setup. That's where quick start
help should come in handy -- the won't have to dive deep in SVNBook.

> So I'm not sure about dropping the "how to make your own local
> repository with file:// and track your own personal files" entirely.
> It's a good way to get a bit of introduction to the repository side of
> the story too (and it's a bit of a neglected use case of svn: track
> your own files locally). Maybe we can add an extra section (after the
> ones you already added) about this. Somewhat optional, in the sense of
> "if you're interested to set up your own local repository to
> version-control your own files, here is how to do it". Just thinking
> out loud ...

Yep, we don't have to drop that section. The current version of this
section is OK. However, I would rework it bit. It requires a comment
for every command that users run, IMO. I'm not sure about the name of
the repository "my-repos", too. For me, this name assumes that there
should be multiple Subversion repositories under "my-repos". But it is
not the case here. I'd use MyRepo or MyProjects. The first one assumes
that this is a SVN repository, the latter one assumes that there can
be multiple projects in a single repository.

--
With best regards,
Pavel Lyalyakin
VisualSVN Team
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Re: Tip of the day: Cheatsheet for common cmdline client operations

Johan Corveleyn-3
On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 6:00 PM, Pavel Lyalyakin
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 11:57 PM, Johan Corveleyn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Pavel Lyalyakin
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> ...
>>> I've spent some time to materialize the Quick Start document that I
>>> think will be helpful for novice SVN users. At the moment, it provides
>>> the most basic guidance which should be enough for "quick start".
>>> However, it lacks "Viewing the history of changes" section that is not
>>> ready yet. As of merging, I'd better provide a link to relevant
>>> SVNBook sections. Merging is not a basic topic and should not be
>>> described in a Quick Start guide, IMO.
>>
>> Hi Pavel,
>>
>> Nice! I've done a quick scan and it looks good in general. I'll try to
>> go through it in detail this weekend, if I find some time.
>>
>> Your "quick start" is much larger than the old one (so we have to be
>> careful that it's still as short as possible, to be "quick"), but I
>> think it's good that you added some explanation of the basic concepts,
>> and try to take the user along the most basic commands. The old "quick
>> start" was more in the style of "here is some bait, don't be afraid to
>> give it a try, and look for more docs". But now that I've read your
>> patch (diagonally), I like it.
>
> Thank you. :)
>
> I consider the current patch as a basis for further work on this
> document. I am not comfortable with rolling out a patch for
> non-discussed document. But if we agree on the structure and topics
> that should be covered, it is going to be easier to compose the doc
> and review it.

Ack. I didn't get around to a detailed review last weekend, and am
totally swamped during this week, sorry. Maybe one of the other people
on this list can go through it and provide some feedback?

Otherwise, maybe I can pick it up again next weekend or the week after.

>>> I'm attaching two patches. I would greatly appreciate a review,
>>> comments and suggestions. Here we go:
>>> 1. svn-quick-start-eol-native-v1.patch.txt
>>>    Log Message:
>>>    [[[
>>>    Add missing svn:eol-style=native property to publish/quick-start.html
>>>    ]]]
>>
>> Sure, of course.
>>
>>> 2. svn-updated-quick-start-v1.patch.txt
>>>     Log Message:
>>>    [[[
>>>    * publish/quick-start.html:
>>>      Updating the SVN Quick Start guide as suggested in
>>>      https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/ea3462042131baac9c702fd4f19ae292c25ef20527d27db449e90f0e@%3Cdev.subversion.apache.org%3E
>>>    ]]]
>>
>> Okay, I'll try to go through it in detail.
>>
>>>> > The question is: what kind of topics should the quick start page cover?
>>>> >
>>>> > My idea is that the page should provide task-based guidance for SVN end user on
>>>> > how to
>>>> > * checkout a working copy,
>>>> > * update the working copy,
>>>> > * modify the data in the working copy and commit it,
>>>> > * make a branch or tag,
>>>> > * perform a simple merge.
>>>>
>>>> Sounds terrific.
>>>>
>>>> The current quickstart page focuses on "how do I quickly set up a my
>>>> own little repository, locally (with file:///) and put some stuff in
>>>> there". Like a beginning user / student / ... perhaps would like to
>>>> version his own files. I think it's a good way to introduce the
>>>> concepts of repository and working copy, and help them get started by
>>>> versioning some of their own files locally.
>>>
>>> SVNBook has a High-Speed Tutorial that provides such instructions:
>>> http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.8/svn.intro.quickstart.html
>>
>> Yes, I know. But still, I think it's important to have quick
>> instructions on our own webpages. Also, the quickstart in the book
>> only shows unix-style examples, and our quickstart page shows both
>> unix and windows examples. I think that's important.
>
> I think that Windows-style examples could be easily added to the
> suggested version of the document. For example, we can add two
> versions of these examples. Note that the examples in the current
> version of the document should work both on *nix systems and Windows.
> There is one example specific to *nix, though:
> [[[
> Direct access: file://var/svn/repos/MyRepo/MyProject/trunk
> ]]]

Indeed, maybe we should add the Windows version of that command too.
Come to think of it, we should probably mention that there are popular
GUI clients out there, so people not comfortable with the command line
shouldn't be turned off (though we're providing only the command line
examples, as the basic mode of working / lowest common denominator,
which can easily be transposed into GUI actions by most users).

>>>> Do you think you can start from that "setup", and continue with the
>>>> topics you listed above? Or would you like to take a different angle?
>>>
>>> I'm thinking about taking a different angle. I think that the document
>>> should assume that a remote Subversion repository is already in place
>>> and the user simply wants to start working with the existing versioned
>>> data. Or he wants to import non-versioned data to the new remote
>>> repository or repository sub-path.
>>>
>>> In my experience, a beginning user or a student already has a
>>> repository that he access via HTTP(S) or svnserve protocol. For
>>> example, a first-year student gains access to his private SVN
>>> repository and never has to use file:// schema or `svnadmin` tool.
>>> There is another case, when a user should first request to create a
>>> repository for him or for his project (here is an example:
>>> http://information-technology.web.cern.ch/book/how-start-working-svn/requesting-new-svn-repository).
>>> He won't use file:// schema and `svnadmin` in this case, too.
>>
>> Hm, okay, I guess you're right concerning "most beginners already have
>> a server setup for them". OTOH, those are the users that often have
>> local people to help them, and documentation / faqs / ... written by
>> their administrators tuned to the local setup.
>
> I think that we should back those local people and administrators with
> some kind of quick reference. It should be helpful for them when they
> write the documentation tuned to their setup. That's where quick start
> help should come in handy -- the won't have to dive deep in SVNBook.

+1

>> So I'm not sure about dropping the "how to make your own local
>> repository with file:// and track your own personal files" entirely.
>> It's a good way to get a bit of introduction to the repository side of
>> the story too (and it's a bit of a neglected use case of svn: track
>> your own files locally). Maybe we can add an extra section (after the
>> ones you already added) about this. Somewhat optional, in the sense of
>> "if you're interested to set up your own local repository to
>> version-control your own files, here is how to do it". Just thinking
>> out loud ...
>
> Yep, we don't have to drop that section. The current version of this
> section is OK. However, I would rework it bit. It requires a comment
> for every command that users run, IMO. I'm not sure about the name of
> the repository "my-repos", too. For me, this name assumes that there
> should be multiple Subversion repositories under "my-repos". But it is
> not the case here. I'd use MyRepo or MyProjects. The first one assumes
> that this is a SVN repository, the latter one assumes that there can
> be multiple projects in a single repository.

+1.

Comments inline, or next to the commands, should certainly help there
(as long as they don't "overwhelm" (maybe avoid comments on actions
that are mostly self-evident?)).

For the name of the repository I'd say MyRepo (or my-repo) then. I
think the name "my-repos" was shorthand for "my-repository",
abbreviating after the 's' in repository, not intended as a plural
form. But you're right, that might be confusing, so +1 for ending in
"repo". The name MyProjects sounds a bit too high-level for me, and
steers the user a bit in a direction that might be different from what
he wants to use it for.

--
Johan
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Re: Tip of the day: Cheatsheet for common cmdline client operations

bahrep
Hello,

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 12:42 AM, Johan Corveleyn <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 6:00 PM, Pavel Lyalyakin
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 11:57 PM, Johan Corveleyn <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Pavel Lyalyakin
> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> ...
> >>> I've spent some time to materialize the Quick Start document that I
> >>> think will be helpful for novice SVN users. At the moment, it provides
> >>> the most basic guidance which should be enough for "quick start".
> >>> However, it lacks "Viewing the history of changes" section that is not
> >>> ready yet. As of merging, I'd better provide a link to relevant
> >>> SVNBook sections. Merging is not a basic topic and should not be
> >>> described in a Quick Start guide, IMO.
> >>
> >> Hi Pavel,
> >>
> >> Nice! I've done a quick scan and it looks good in general. I'll try to
> >> go through it in detail this weekend, if I find some time.
> >>
> >> Your "quick start" is much larger than the old one (so we have to be
> >> careful that it's still as short as possible, to be "quick"), but I
> >> think it's good that you added some explanation of the basic concepts,
> >> and try to take the user along the most basic commands. The old "quick
> >> start" was more in the style of "here is some bait, don't be afraid to
> >> give it a try, and look for more docs". But now that I've read your
> >> patch (diagonally), I like it.
> >
> > Thank you. :)
> >
> > I consider the current patch as a basis for further work on this
> > document. I am not comfortable with rolling out a patch for
> > non-discussed document. But if we agree on the structure and topics
> > that should be covered, it is going to be easier to compose the doc
> > and review it.
>
> Ack. I didn't get around to a detailed review last weekend, and am
> totally swamped during this week, sorry. Maybe one of the other people
> on this list can go through it and provide some feedback?
>
> Otherwise, maybe I can pick it up again next weekend or the week after.

Got it. I'm thinking about making a new version of the patch taking
your suggestions into consideration till the end of the week. I guess
that I will send them in a separate new "[PATCH] ... thread" per patch
submission guidelines
(http://subversion.apache.org/docs/community-guide/general.html#patches).
That would be the correct way to send the patch to the mailing list
for a review.

> >>> I'm attaching two patches. I would greatly appreciate a review,
> >>> comments and suggestions. Here we go:
> >>> 1. svn-quick-start-eol-native-v1.patch.txt
> >>>    Log Message:
> >>>    [[[
> >>>    Add missing svn:eol-style=native property to publish/quick-start.html
> >>>    ]]]
> >>
> >> Sure, of course.
> >>
> >>> 2. svn-updated-quick-start-v1.patch.txt
> >>>     Log Message:
> >>>    [[[
> >>>    * publish/quick-start.html:
> >>>      Updating the SVN Quick Start guide as suggested in
> >>>      https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/ea3462042131baac9c702fd4f19ae292c25ef20527d27db449e90f0e@%3Cdev.subversion.apache.org%3E
> >>>    ]]]
> >>
> >> Okay, I'll try to go through it in detail.
> >>
> >>>> > The question is: what kind of topics should the quick start page cover?
> >>>> >
> >>>> > My idea is that the page should provide task-based guidance for SVN end user on
> >>>> > how to
> >>>> > * checkout a working copy,
> >>>> > * update the working copy,
> >>>> > * modify the data in the working copy and commit it,
> >>>> > * make a branch or tag,
> >>>> > * perform a simple merge.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sounds terrific.
> >>>>
> >>>> The current quickstart page focuses on "how do I quickly set up a my
> >>>> own little repository, locally (with file:///) and put some stuff in
> >>>> there". Like a beginning user / student / ... perhaps would like to
> >>>> version his own files. I think it's a good way to introduce the
> >>>> concepts of repository and working copy, and help them get started by
> >>>> versioning some of their own files locally.
> >>>
> >>> SVNBook has a High-Speed Tutorial that provides such instructions:
> >>> http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.8/svn.intro.quickstart.html
> >>
> >> Yes, I know. But still, I think it's important to have quick
> >> instructions on our own webpages. Also, the quickstart in the book
> >> only shows unix-style examples, and our quickstart page shows both
> >> unix and windows examples. I think that's important.
> >
> > I think that Windows-style examples could be easily added to the
> > suggested version of the document. For example, we can add two
> > versions of these examples. Note that the examples in the current
> > version of the document should work both on *nix systems and Windows.
> > There is one example specific to *nix, though:
> > [[[
> > Direct access: file://var/svn/repos/MyRepo/MyProject/trunk
> > ]]]
>
> Indeed, maybe we should add the Windows version of that command too.
> Come to think of it, we should probably mention that there are popular
> GUI clients out there, so people not comfortable with the command line
> shouldn't be turned off (though we're providing only the command line
> examples, as the basic mode of working / lowest common denominator,
> which can easily be transposed into GUI actions by most users).

Got it. Thanks for the suggestion.

> >>>> Do you think you can start from that "setup", and continue with the
> >>>> topics you listed above? Or would you like to take a different angle?
> >>>
> >>> I'm thinking about taking a different angle. I think that the document
> >>> should assume that a remote Subversion repository is already in place
> >>> and the user simply wants to start working with the existing versioned
> >>> data. Or he wants to import non-versioned data to the new remote
> >>> repository or repository sub-path.
> >>>
> >>> In my experience, a beginning user or a student already has a
> >>> repository that he access via HTTP(S) or svnserve protocol. For
> >>> example, a first-year student gains access to his private SVN
> >>> repository and never has to use file:// schema or `svnadmin` tool.
> >>> There is another case, when a user should first request to create a
> >>> repository for him or for his project (here is an example:
> >>> http://information-technology.web.cern.ch/book/how-start-working-svn/requesting-new-svn-repository).
> >>> He won't use file:// schema and `svnadmin` in this case, too.
> >>
> >> Hm, okay, I guess you're right concerning "most beginners already have
> >> a server setup for them". OTOH, those are the users that often have
> >> local people to help them, and documentation / faqs / ... written by
> >> their administrators tuned to the local setup.
> >
> > I think that we should back those local people and administrators with
> > some kind of quick reference. It should be helpful for them when they
> > write the documentation tuned to their setup. That's where quick start
> > help should come in handy -- the won't have to dive deep in SVNBook.
>
> +1
>
> >> So I'm not sure about dropping the "how to make your own local
> >> repository with file:// and track your own personal files" entirely.
> >> It's a good way to get a bit of introduction to the repository side of
> >> the story too (and it's a bit of a neglected use case of svn: track
> >> your own files locally). Maybe we can add an extra section (after the
> >> ones you already added) about this. Somewhat optional, in the sense of
> >> "if you're interested to set up your own local repository to
> >> version-control your own files, here is how to do it". Just thinking
> >> out loud ...
> >
> > Yep, we don't have to drop that section. The current version of this
> > section is OK. However, I would rework it bit. It requires a comment
> > for every command that users run, IMO. I'm not sure about the name of
> > the repository "my-repos", too. For me, this name assumes that there
> > should be multiple Subversion repositories under "my-repos". But it is
> > not the case here. I'd use MyRepo or MyProjects. The first one assumes
> > that this is a SVN repository, the latter one assumes that there can
> > be multiple projects in a single repository.
>
> +1.
>
> Comments inline, or next to the commands, should certainly help there
> (as long as they don't "overwhelm" (maybe avoid comments on actions
> that are mostly self-evident?)).
>
> For the name of the repository I'd say MyRepo (or my-repo) then. I
> think the name "my-repos" was shorthand for "my-repository",
> abbreviating after the 's' in repository, not intended as a plural
> form. But you're right, that might be confusing, so +1 for ending in
> "repo". The name MyProjects sounds a bit too high-level for me, and
> steers the user a bit in a direction that might be different from what
> he wants to use it for.

Got it. I agree that MyProjects is indeed a bit high-level and does
not help to understand that it is a repository.

--
With best regards,
Pavel Lyalyakin
VisualSVN Team
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Re: Tip of the day: Cheatsheet for common cmdline client operations

Johan Corveleyn-3
Op 20 sep. 2017 17:28 schreef "Pavel Lyalyakin" <[hidden email]>:
Hello,

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 12:42 AM, Johan Corveleyn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 6:00 PM, Pavel Lyalyakin
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 11:57 PM, Johan Corveleyn <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Pavel Lyalyakin
> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> ...
> >>> I've spent some time to materialize the Quick Start document that I
> >>> think will be helpful for novice SVN users. At the moment, it provides
> >>> the most basic guidance which should be enough for "quick start".
> >>> However, it lacks "Viewing the history of changes" section that is not
> >>> ready yet. As of merging, I'd better provide a link to relevant
> >>> SVNBook sections. Merging is not a basic topic and should not be
> >>> described in a Quick Start guide, IMO.
> >>
> >> Hi Pavel,
> >>
> >> Nice! I've done a quick scan and it looks good in general. I'll try to
> >> go through it in detail this weekend, if I find some time.
> >>
> >> Your "quick start" is much larger than the old one (so we have to be
> >> careful that it's still as short as possible, to be "quick"), but I
> >> think it's good that you added some explanation of the basic concepts,
> >> and try to take the user along the most basic commands. The old "quick
> >> start" was more in the style of "here is some bait, don't be afraid to
> >> give it a try, and look for more docs". But now that I've read your
> >> patch (diagonally), I like it.
> >
> > Thank you. :)
> >
> > I consider the current patch as a basis for further work on this
> > document. I am not comfortable with rolling out a patch for
> > non-discussed document. But if we agree on the structure and topics
> > that should be covered, it is going to be easier to compose the doc
> > and review it.
>
> Ack. I didn't get around to a detailed review last weekend, and am
> totally swamped during this week, sorry. Maybe one of the other people
> on this list can go through it and provide some feedback?
>
> Otherwise, maybe I can pick it up again next weekend or the week after.

Got it. I'm thinking about making a new version of the patch taking
your suggestions into consideration till the end of the week. I guess
that I will send them in a separate new "[PATCH] ... thread" per patch
submission guidelines
(http://subversion.apache.org/docs/community-guide/general.html#patches).
That would be the correct way to send the patch to the mailing list
for a review.

Ack, that would be good.

-- 
Johan
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Meta: Inline replies in gmail are broken in text/plain view (was: Re: Tip of the day: Cheatsheet for common cmdline client operations)

Daniel Shahaf-2
Johan Corveleyn wrote on Thu, 21 Sep 2017 15:54 +0200:
> Op 20 sep. 2017 17:28 schreef "Pavel Lyalyakin" <
> [hidden email]>:
>
> Hello,

The line "Hello" was written by Pavel; Johan's MUA should have preceded
it with a ">" but did not.  Consequently, the reply is virtually
unreadable in plain text mode: it makes no distinction between the
quoted text (by Pavel) and the new text (by Johan).

I gather — thanks to some excellent detective work by jcorvel — that
this behaviour is a new (mis)feature of gmail, which kicks in when (1)
composing in HTML mode, (2) while composing a reply, adding some
response text inline (as opposed to top-posting).  It affects even
replies to text/plain emails (such as Pavel's post, the grandparent of
this one).

I'm not aware of a workaround, but given that this issue does make
emails considerably harder to read in plain text MUAs --- and affects
multiple posters on multiple lists --- I did feel it merited a post.

And as people always ask in such situations: if somebody has a back
channel to the gmail team, please do use it...

Thanks,

Daniel